July 4th, 2006 by Atomictumor
Ms. Ginny Stroud: “Okay guys, one more thing, this summer when you’re being inundated with all this American bicentennial Fourth Of July brouhaha, don’t forget what you’re celebrating, and that’s the fact that a bunch of slave-owning, aristocratic, white males didn’t want to pay their taxes.”
Yes, I’m at work today.
July 4th, 2006 at 9:12 am
” . . . the fact that a bunch of slave-owning, aristocratic, white males didn’t want to pay their taxes.”
Well, not exactly. These males objected to taxation without representation, not taxation per se.
Anyway, that’s not what I celebrate on the 4th. Your mileage may differ.
July 4th, 2006 at 9:35 am
Dude, clearly, that was Ms. Ginny Stroud. And whats with this mileage thing?
Bitter bitter, AT. Angry little man.
You know who America needs to thank for independance?
France.
Both in the late 1700s and the early 1800s.
July 4th, 2006 at 9:35 am
But I betcha theres not going to be any country songs about that…
July 4th, 2006 at 9:35 am
The new skin looks good.
Yeah, I have to say Independence Day is one of my favorite holidays. When it comes right down to it, I’d rather live here than any other country. I think that despite its problems, which aren’t inherent to the whole enterprise.
Enough patriotism…
If any of you all end up in Norris this evening, look for us Cemestos Gardenites. We’ll be there.
July 4th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Yeah, I agree about the whole America thing. I just don’t like most Americans…
July 4th, 2006 at 9:59 am
Sorry, AT. I didn’t mean that as an implied attack on you. After all, you’re doing your patriotic duty for American capitalism today by going to work.
“D’accord” on the France thing. A lot of people got the stupids when France questioned Bush’s unprovoked invasion and occupation of Iraq. France was right again.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:01 pm
“France was right again.”
You’re kidding right? I don’t blame them for questioning Bush for any reason…just their motives for wanting to leave poor ole Saddam alone.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1291280_1,00.html
July 4th, 2006 at 12:09 pm
At Yorktown, the victory that won the war, Frenchmen outnumbered Americans almost three to one. Washington had 11,000 men engaged in the battle, while the French had at least 29,000 soldiers and sailors. the 37 French ships-of-the-line played a crucial role in trapping the 8700-strong British army and winning the engagement.
And I suppose Happy Aristocrats Day just never caught on.
How about Lets All Cook Meat Outside Day?
July 4th, 2006 at 12:35 pm
“You’re kidding right?”
Nope. The French government took the view that the UN inspection process should continue, and opposed the invasion:
“The general populations of France and Germany were opposed to the war and it would have been difficult for their governments had they failed to reflect those sentiments in policy. After the first UN resolution, the US and the UK pushed for a second resolution. The French and German governments, amongst others, took the position that the UN inspection process should be allowed to be completed.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_opposition_to_the_2003_Iraq_War
“I don’t blame them for questioning Bush for any reason…just their motives for wanting to leave poor ole Saddam alone.”
So the majority of the French public–which opposed the invasion and whose will was ably represented by their democratically elected government–was on the take from Saddam? Who knew?
Any smear is ok as long as it supports your partisan talking points, eh, daco?
July 4th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
Daco,
I can’t argue with you, the actions of the French and Russian politicians were douchebaggery on a par with the aggressive countries. I appreciate a stance against war, but it appears they did it for the wrong reasons.
Which makes every nation culpable in this whole thing. Except the ones too poor to send aid, or have an opinion.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:45 pm
” . . . but it appears they did it for the wrong reasons.”
Uh, so they *shouldn’t* represent the majority of their citizens?
Do you have any evidence that the oil for food program influenced any French man or woman? Or are you just projecting here?
July 4th, 2006 at 12:59 pm
(Editor note: After I had written three quarters of this response, I noticed that there posts from Joel and Joe P there, which would probably have influenced what this response would have entailed. However, I like it, so pretend that my first post here came right after Daco’s. I get to do that, because I pay the bills, and have a reality warping necklace)
Joel,
I would respectfully point you to use of the “appears” in the preceeding post. If you ask me what I really think, I think its as likely that:
a) The whole French/Iraq thing is a wag the dog scenario
b) That the entire population of France is inherently evil, and determined not just to crush America, but to steal our life essence
c) That politicians in France represent exactly as much of the interests of the French people as American politicans do for Americans.
d) That foreign interests in chipping away at the last superpower have resulted in a foreign media that is bound and determined to sway global opinion against any action that America takes, particularly any action resulting in war.
I’d keep going, but I don’t know what you want from me. Are you implying that because I question the intentions of politicians in France that I would consider a stance against a unlateral, ill-informed, poorly implemented war (My dumbass just noticed Joel’s big long post at 12:35).
Dammit, never mind. This whole thing just fell apart. Hell with it, I’m submitting it anyway.
Point is, I think its as equally likely that the French had secret deals with Iraq, and certainly likely that the Russians did (judging by their current dealings with Iran), which I don’t really have much of a problem with, and particularly not in hindsight, since the place is a lot worse off after these actions were taken.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:11 pm
The idea that there are corrupt French politicians doesn’t surprise me. But do you have any evidence that the politicians who allegedly benefitted from the oil for food kickbacks were the ones who publicly opposed the US invasion of Iraq. And how, pray tell, was the Iraqi government able to consummate separate oil for food kickback deals for a majority of the French public (the population of France is a little over 60 million)?
Get a grip, guys. Yes, there was corruption in the UN oil for food program, and yes, I think that corruption is deplorable. But the fiction that France opposed the US invasion because of the oil for food program is just another political smear to draw attention away from the fact that the invasion was not only a mistake but a forseeable mistake. The French (among others) forsaw it.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:19 pm
Joel, I subscribe to it as much as I subscribe to anything with the media these days. I agree, I believe the oil for food thing was a witch hunt, and all you really heard about it from over here (unless you dug, as you obviously have) was that senators didn’t want to pay US dues to the UN.
Big deal, they never do.
I didn’t pay a lot of whatnot to all that.
However, what does seem somewhat credible is that France was trying to see what they can get out of Iraq in the way of concessions. Frankly, if the rest of the world had any sense they’d have been doing it too.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:50 pm
I’m sorry i can’t grab or resurrect the pertinent news articles, but I seem to recall
reading that the majority of what was once an Iraqi Air Force were all purchased
from France and further that France was one of the top suppliers of weapons to
Iraq — of course the US also sold arms to Iraq (again if memory serves) as we
encouraged the iraqi/iranian war.
on yet another distantly related to this post topic, i often wonder why the US has
utterly abandoned the UN rather than rooting out the corruption and restoring some
semblance of usefulness to the organization.
and i’m pretty sure i’ll have to spend the next few days in my personal bunker having
used words like “France” and “UN” and violating numerous Southern protocols.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:20 pm
I would just like to point out that I fully support a “Lets All Cook Meat Outside Day”.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:21 pm
We’ll protect ya, Joe.
The UN was useful to the US when there were two big kids on the block, but now that theres just one, theres no sense in the UN. Or at least thats how I see the unofficial position of this country to the UN. They expect the UN to rubber stamp its initatives, which it seemed to do back in the day, but has little incentive to do now.
Something else about France, Joel, I just remembered that we can discuss to outline the fact that their politics might have little to do with a general anti-war stance is its recent behavior in western Africa.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:30 pm
“I would just like to point out that I fully support a “Lets All Cook Meat Outside Dayâ€. “
Amen sister…and we shall.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:31 pm
“Something else about France, Joel, I just remembered that we can discuss to outline the fact that their politics might have little to do with a general anti-war stance is its recent behavior in western Africa.”
Yeah, and there’s Algeria and Indochina. The right-wing meme that the French are wimps or anti-war just shows that the right and its acolytes don’t know their history.
History. Which brings us back to July 4.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:32 pm
And to hunks of animal flesh cooking in the hot sun.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:45 pm
Yep, we’re going to cook some big burgers here at the gardens…
July 4th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
I’ll be looking for a Beaujolais or Cote de Rhone to go with.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:53 pm
I’m going to get a cold t-bone cuz the Volvo isn’t fit to drive my after work ass to Knoxville. However, I’m not complaining, because its still a t-bone, and theres nothing wrong with that. Unless you drop it or something.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:58 pm
I’ve made some iced tea.
July 4th, 2006 at 3:34 pm
Ho-leee God, GAC — thanks for pointing out the near pornographic error on my
page. Nobody else bothered to tell me, guess they all can’t read or just enjoyed
my incompetence.
July 4th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Dude, I didn’t even notice after she pointed it out.
July 4th, 2006 at 4:05 pm
I blame the French
July 4th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Quoi?