Comments on: City Council vs. Bosphorus - Judges Decision

By: Mrs Eaves

Mrs Eaves — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:15:01 +0000

How about the walk zone kids can ride the golf carts from the golf course that receives City funding?

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:32:48 +0000

Hey, evidently they can drink and do that too, so its OK.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:33:22 +0000

It is comforting to know that we have business as usual at the golf course, isn’t it?

By: daco

daco — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:52:41 +0000

Whoa…I was wrong. I thought that city supported the golf course to the tune of $500,000 annually. Way off. We, the gullible taxpayers of Oak Ridge are only being billed $300,000 to support income shortfalls at the golf course.

I wonder if a $300,000 transfer of funds to the school board would repair the busing problem.

By: Joe P.

Joe P. — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:53:06 +0000

So first, kudos for taking concerns to the public meeting and blogging about it.

And second, did Bos have to wait that long in order to reach the portion of the
meeting where the public could add comments?

If so, isn’t delaying public comments a good way to insure most folks tire and
walk away?

And third - the experience has much in common with many I’ve seen in local
government. Meaning by design comments are actively discouraged.

By: daco

daco — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 12:53:25 +0000

Sorry….page 28.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:03:49 +0000

Joe: Yuppers. Eaves and I were discussing that last night in our mighty chat thingy, which I might post the transcripts of eventually. We were under the impression that council normally put public comments toward the beginning, but a quick look at past minutes indicates that public participation hits item 17 on the agenda, so, y’know, there you have it.
Bos waited until quarter till 11 to talk. He had been sitting there since 7:30, through a whole lot of boring crap. Willowbrook (the only school, other than the OR Preschool, thats open now) was encouraging parents to show up at the meeting to voice dissent, but Bos and another guy were the only ones that did.
I agree, council doesn’t care about comments, and as they never replied to my emails, I doubt they care about them. They’ve been to my site (can tell by the IPs), to the Oak Ridger forums, surely to Netmom’s site, but have never deigned to comment on them. Never got a letter in the paper about it.
They don’t give two shits about what citizens of their town say or think. They’re not bothering to defend a position, or to talk with citizens about this stuff.
The school thing is a pissing match with the school board, and 5 yr olds are paying for it.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:04:17 +0000

Daco: Lets cartjack the golf course…

By: daco

daco — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:20:37 +0000

Shhhh…man you’ll have homeland security on our asses before you can yell “FORE.”

By: Mrs. Eaves

Mrs. Eaves — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:39:50 +0000

As far as I can tell, with limited research, the Appearance of Citizens was item # 7 on the council agenda as recently as April 18, 2005. On May 9, 2005, the Appearance of Citizens was moved to item # 17, where it remains today. It sends the message loud and clear that public comments/input are not a priority among current council members.

As far as Willow Brook involvement goes, there may have been some WB folks there who were unable to stay to the conclusion. I don’t fault them for that. The Willow Brook PTO will be holding a general sessions meeting on August 8th to address transportation and how the community can speak as one against this BS.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 13:47:42 +0000

I agree. If the council isn’t interested in hearing from individuals, we need to get on their item as a group.
Problem is, the budget is set for this year, and, as I understand it, is in concrete. What options do we have?

By: daco

daco — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:02:54 +0000

Has anyone spoken to a member of the school board to find out why they made this particular decision? I haven’t. Is this a political squeeze play, by the school board to pressure council for more money? Of course. Is that responsible? Don’t think so.

Seems to me that pressure should be applied to both the board and council. Council really does have an easy out on this one. It really wasn’t their decision and they can’t change the decision made by the board.

If child safety really is a priority for our school system, it appears to me that this cut was either a big mistake (I doubt it) or malicious. So who should we really be attacking here?

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 14:08:39 +0000

Man, I agree 100%. It seems the board is content with everybody with everybody bashing the council, but the board held the pen.
Council does have an out, but its deplorable that they wouldn’t fully fund the schools. You don’t screw with school systems in a town that name drops education. Its just not done. The way I see it, council started this, and the board followed up in like.
NM, what do you say?

By: Joe P.

Joe P. — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:40:15 +0000

Here in Mo’twon, public comments in school board and other govt meetings was
placed AFTER business was already voted on. After some complaints to board and
elected officials, reps successfully moved public input to the start of meetings, but
that doesn’t make ‘em listen!
And that problem of buck passing/politcal games makes corrective action nearly
impossible.
And here I wuz thinking Oak Ridge was ahead and apart from all that! Ah well …

By: Netmom

Netmom — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 15:50:16 +0000

Daco asked if $300,000 would fix the bus problem. The answer is YES; it would only take $270,000 to fix the bus problem (for this year).

I can only speak for myself, but reducing bus service was the least harmful overall. I know — it is harmful — but if that’s the least so, just imagine how bad other avenues might have been.

Other options? 9th grade sports is worth about $22,000; 4th grade strings (supposedly) about $28,000… the School Board would have had to cut a whole slew of things to get to the same amount as the 1-mile bus radius. Another factor, at least for me, was that we’re faced with having to budget for replacing our buses as they age, and this allows us to have to replace fewer over the next 3-5 years.

I’m told to anticipate an even bigger budgetary problem next year, unless there is a significant change in state funding, or unless the City budges from their rigid formula.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:04:55 +0000

If the city doesn’t budge, then we’re all going to have a problem.

I don’t know, NM. I think it may have been a better choice to axe all around, and at least keep these kids safe. But, thats just my opinion, I’d still be bitching (albeit quieter) if MastaG didn’t have the chance to take Strings this year.

By: daco

daco — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:05:21 +0000

Sounds like I need to start a bus service. I wonder if a private business could operate a bus service more effeciently than a city department.

By: Bosphorus

Bosphorus — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:26:54 +0000

I planned a post on this, but y’all have covered a lot of ground in this comment string. So here’s my two cents.

I am unaware of any current organized effort to address this situation. There needs to be one, because the situation isn’t simple. It involves, as several have pointed out, two gov. entities who aren’t playing well together. That’s a lousy situation that has ultimately led to elementary schoolers walking.

The Mayor Bradshaw is accurate when he said last night that council cannot control how the School Board spends its money. That’s right, but they, the council, control the purse strings.

Seems to me there’s two fronts here–the city council and the school board. Each has to addressed differently.

The stable tax needs to be brought up to the council over and over. They can’t be allowed to forget it. Bradshaw did say that if citizens think this stable tax is wrong then it should be revisited. Let’s hold him to that.

The school board has to find ways to get elementary students back on the busses. That’s only one of their problems, though.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:43:58 +0000

Can it happen this year. Netmom?

By: Daddy Goose

Daddy Goose — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 22:07:25 +0000

Sounds like I need to start a bus service. I wonder if a private business could operate a bus service more effeciently than a city(school) department.

In my opinion if its worth anything is YES!!!

By: GoldenAppleCorp

GoldenAppleCorp — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 23:38:55 +0000

From what I understand, a private contractor would definitely save some amount of money, although it might be negligable. I believe Netmom provided the numbers, or I read it somewhere. If I find it, I’ll let you know.

By: William Worthey

William Worthey — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:34:16 +0000

The entire bus issue is a deliberate political ploy by the school board to make otherwise thinking folk stir up hostility against the council. The council is doing a good job. The school board is NOT. Why can’t they live within their budget projections on ANY given year. It is clear from the refusal of the school board to issue a line item budget expense statement to the tax payers of Oak Ridge that they have NO interest in financial transparency.

Blaming the council is Bullshit. Folk need to wake up and realize that school board inefficiency and salary bloat is at the heart of this issue. As for the school board and its supporters, they need to stop playing politics with our kids. If they spent more time controlling rampant salaries of their upper level administrators and less screwing around with peoples kids with stunts we would all be better of in this town.

Its so transparent “bus cuts make you mad –> you blame the council —> they get bigger raises” people wake up, an exploding school budget does nothing but hurt our children and our town. I applaud the councilors for not yielding to moral blackmail.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:47:31 +0000

Then you’re being short sighted Will, simple as that. You’re jumping on board this us vs. them bullshit thats causing the problem.
The school board expenses are not a fixed item. They receive mandates from the state to provide this, or that, but don’t receive the funding. The feds want them to do this no child left behind crap, and pay for much of it on their own. Yes, the budget for the board went up 4%, but its dumb as hell to assume that the expenses don’t go up 4%.
Will, I’m not sure there isn’t a line item budget. While I’m not going to go look it up, the board spent several nights back in April/May going through the budget line by line on public TV, in open meetings, which would lead me to believe that one can find it easily.
But thats not the case.
The case, Mr. Worthey, is that the City of Oak Ridge is fucking over the kids. Whether they’re doing it for political reasons or financial reasons (why would the board want to dither for more money? it wouldn’t be a raise for school board) doesn’t matter. What matters is that the council was told that the budget wasn’t enough, after a very open and intensive first cut, and the council still didn’t do anything about it. When the second cut went, it was to the bone, and thats on the council. Defend the city all day long, but it doesn’t change these facts.

By: mrs. eaves

mrs. eaves — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:58:03 +0000

Ha! Wouldn’t it be nice if everything were so black and white?
Blame can and should be shared by both the council and the school board, something that’s already been mentioned on this board as well as at the city council meeting.
I think that the bus cuts are just a symptom of a much larger underlying problem. The council’s priorities are elsewhere right now - they’ve made that very clear.
The council certainly doesn’t make a big effort to justify the bloated salaries of City administrators, or every line item budget expense. And yet, when it’s the school board’s turn, they’re suddenly greedy, money hungry moral blackmailers?

It’s just too easy to demonize one or the other - to pit the council and the school board against each other. It only adds fuel to the fire and doesn’t solve one single thing.

By: William Worthey

William Worthey — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:03:21 +0000

Now Tumor you are usually very broad minded about civic matters, but I need to challenge your assertion that the budget was already cut to the bone. How do you know that? Because a PTO email told you so? When you get that line item breakdown, post it then I will change my view. All the other city services line item budgets are public review documents, for example my salary is a public data point. Why can’t we have this level of disclosure from our education service?

Its hard to be in the minority (as a guy with kids who wants to see some fiscal responsibility). The town has to attract new business to survive and we all have to live within reasonable budgets. The other services that make this town a good place to live always get forgotten in all this. If the fire department, electricity etc can all stay within operating budgets, (and they faced the exact same fuel hikes), why can’t our education service?

The fact is that we do not have that line item break down of expenses, such a breakdown would lay this argument to rest at least moraly speaking. We have no budget line item budget for the school system, unlike our other services, and thats the most important fact of all.

By: GoldenAppleCorp

GoldenAppleCorp — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 17:37:17 +0000

As AT stated, the schools are responsible for keeping up with what the government (fed, state and local) require of them. This can mean additional classes, a lower teacher/student ratio, specialized staff, or any number of things. Computers purchased just four years ago are already considered obsolete. The cost of maintenance, supplies, food, and yes, even salaries, are not exempt from increases. The cost of things go up.
It’s shortsighted to say that the school should be able to subsist on the same amount of money that it did five years ago. It can’t. Things cost more now than they did five years ago. It’s called “inflation”.
Having said that, I tend to agree that it’s at least as much the school board’s fault we’re in such a mess. They could have made the line item budget more accessible to the public. They could have presented a better call-to-arms in the public sector to get parents and community involved.
If teachers are paying out of pocket for classroom supplies, if parents are given supply lists with paper towls and soap on them, if kids rely on Box Tops to pay for field trips, if kids are forced to walk to school, then they are not funded well enough.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:44:07 +0000

And I bet a bunch of these stable property tax wankers talk about the decline of the public school system in America out of the other side of their mouth. Man, I’ll be damned if I’m going to have bought a house in a town that gave up on schools. Piss on that, you flat taxers can move.

By: daco

daco — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:12:35 +0000

Simmer down AT. Man it would be a shame to have a heart attack before you reach 30.
Frankly, I think Mr. Worthey makes a good point, and you gettin your knickers in a flat tax twist is silly.

Is the school board budget transparent or not? I don’t know either. If it is then fine. If they have “refused” as Mr. Worthey suggests, to issue a line item budget then I for one would like to know why. If you think about it…so would you.
So let’s find out.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:19:52 +0000

Well, I think its beside the point, and my writing on all of this backs that up. What bothers me is the callous disregard of these kids walking to school. What bothers me slightly less is the callous disregard of the parents time whos kids don’t ride the bus, waiting in line for 20 minutes.
And before somebody starts calling “you’re just mad because you’re inconvenienced”, fact is this whole thing hasnt’ affected our house personally at all. We’re following the same procedures to get the kids to and from school that we did last year, and are unaffected by the bussing crap, or the waiting in line crap.
Could be I’m looking at a worst case scenario, but kids crossing busy streets without crossing guards makes my stomach sick. I don’t understand why it isn’t having that effect on everybody else, particularly those with kids themselves, or a conscience.
Frankly, I could give two shits whose fault this is. I don’t care about line items, and budgets, and whatnots. I don’t think the school board has the power to fix this, so I’m calling out the council.

By: daco

daco — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:29:52 +0000

I understand AT. It is lousey problem, and I am affected. I have a grandson in 3rd grade at Willow Brook. I picked him up last friday and the parking lot is a mad house. I have to give the Principal and the teachers a bunch of credit for the way they are trying to handle the situation.

“I donâ€™t think the school board has the power to fix this, so Iâ€™m calling out the council.” I disagree. I think that the school board is the only group that can correct this problem. They may very well not have the money to do it, but council can’t do school board business.

I think there is more to this problem than meets the eye.

By: William Worthey

William Worthey — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:11:09 +0000

All I am saying is lets have transparent pay and cost analysis. Then this debate can proceed on a more logical and rational way.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:18:51 +0000

And what I’m saying is lets get the kids safe before we screw around with pointing fingers, man.

By: daco

daco — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:53:26 +0000

Okay now see….I really confused. I agree with you both.
Mr. Worthey is absolutely correct though. If we don’t know the real numbers, we can’t possibly know the real solution.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:49:10 +0000

Yes, he’s absolutely right, and I agree that the school board is as responsible for the decision as the council. I remember hearing from Netmom something to the effect that the school board was transparent, and the council wasn’t.

By: mrs. eaves

mrs. eaves — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:53:31 +0000

I also agree that transparency, in both the school board and the city council, is essential to any kind of progress.

Netmom, a while back you offered to sit down with GAC and go over the school budget bit by bit. Does that offer still stand?

http://www.atomictumor.com/2006/05/10/why-did-i-move-to-oak-ridge-again/

(Scroll down in the comments section).

(Sorry, I don’t know how to make a fancy link).

By: daco

daco — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 22:05:03 +0000

Thanks for the link Mrs. Eaves. I think I’ll take a little trip down to the library.
I would ‘t count on NetMom to take much time going over the school buget with anyone right now….she is far to busy being sued, for more money than God can get his hands on, by an alleged assmonkey.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 23:46:02 +0000

Yeah, GAC’s ass can’t cash that one.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 00:03:46 +0000

Will Worthey, at noon today my spam catcher nailed your post, and I didn’t notice till today. Sorry about that!
To address what you were saying, regarding fiscal responsibility and staying within “reasonable budgets”, how is this budget reasonable?
I think this is where you and I differ. I’m not interested in the accounting, and line items, and what not, I’m interested in seeing the school system in Oak Ridge be superior, because thats what I’m paying for. Yes, electricity, fire, and police are facing rising expenses, and are able to stay within their budge (we could discuss the police, but thats another conversation). The school system, in my mind, is incomparable to these organizations because of the nature of its business.

By: Jojo

Jojo — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:55:25 +0000

The relationship between the school board and the coucil is necessarily advesarial. The board, of course, wants the best school system possible; the council has a broader spectrum of things to consider. The focus of this arguement, in my opinion, should not be limited to can’t we all just get along. The root of the problem as I understand it is that the school board revised its request to the council after the council agreed to the original 4% increase. I hope that the school board is working hard now to ensure that the first number they take to the council next time is an accurate request for what they really need.

In the mean time, I’ve not heard much talk about using one of this cities assets - old folks. I’m sure there are enough retired people around who would enjoy getting out of the house for an hour a day to keep our kids safe.

By: Joel

Joel — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:01:28 +0000

“Iâ€™m sure there are enough retired people around who would enjoy getting out of the house for an hour a day to keep our kids safe.”

This thought also crossed my mind while reading this thread.

By: Atomictumor

Atomictumor — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 15:17:36 +0000

Indeed, thanks Jojo.
I may be following my habit of talking out of my ass, but I was under the impression that the board didn’t originally request a 4% increase, but the city instead applied it automatically.
If the board did request an increase that doesn’t cover the bills, then you’re right, thats just plain dumb.

By: Mom Goose

Mom Goose — Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:15:12 +0000

beginning with the 1 mile walk zone is the first step to getting the community’s attention. By next school year what I understand is that it will be a mile and a half. Each step is drawing closer and closer for LaidLaw to come in and provide contracted bus service for Oak Ridge. The smaller contractors in the area I hope will be able to bid on the services but I feel ASSURED Laidlaw will win the bids hands down. As the older buses sit and are not replaced or used, their value goes down and there are just not a lot of bus companies in the area that would be interested in old out of service buses. I just wonder about the salaries given to the employees in transportation if it is truely necessary to pay someone who deals only with one contractor so much when that could be a “minor” job for another department head if a large contractor is providing the services.

By: daco

daco — Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:23:28 +0000

You or your husband are union members aren’t you mom?

By: AT

AT — Sun, 06 Aug 2006 20:30:15 +0000

If I didn’t know better, I’d start thinkin’ shes trolling…

By: Mom Goose

Mom Goose — Mon, 07 Aug 2006 22:08:01 +0000

Nope No Union….Don’t believe in them.They are as weak as can be.At 1 point in history they were worth while now they (in my opion anyway) they are a waste of time and money.I would only join one if I had too and they better be ready to string me up before I signed on the dotted line. Daddy Goose