February 2nd, 2007 by Atomictumor
So, yesterday MastaG had his dental checkup, and of course, him being of prime “make money off his teeth” age, they referred me to an orthodontist for an overbite problem. I was waiting for this.
While I never had braces myself, I’ve always had an overbite. Mom was told that I’d need braces, and I think not getting them was great, seeing as how
- Middle school sucks enough without metallic pain on your teeth
- I had a tendancy to get migraines
- They’re hella expensive
- No problems later in life.
Now, ol’ MastaG fits the first three settings there, and doesn’t have any eating/biting/mouthy problems that he complains of now. He does have a snaggletooth, where a tooth is determined to grow in where it doesn’t have room, but nothing that affects him negatively.
So, why get braces? America does have a certain amount of a straight tooth fixation that other countries in the world lack, and the way I see it, as long as his teeth and mouth are otherwise healthy, I don’t want to put the boy or my wallet through the trouble of braces. I know, in my case, the mouth pressure would have triggered headaches, and I have a feeling for him that it would. I don’t see the point in putting him in pain for vanity.
Problem is, I doubt an orthodonsist, who sees my kids mouth as a boat payment, would necessarily tell me “Well, by the standards we like to set in the AMA, in that he doesn’t have a ‘perfect’ set of teeth, he could use braces, but for all practical purposes they wouldn’t do him any good”.
That’d be super, but hell, everybodys gotta make a buck, right?
So, whats a boy to do? My instinct, and MastaG’s request, is to avoid braces if at all possible. He had a clean bill of dental health otherwise, no cavities or nastyness, so I’m wondering.
Hmm.
And so I submit it to the Atomictumor Hive Mind, what do you figure? Of course, I’ll take him to the orthodontist, have the guy check it out, and if it looks like there’ll be developmental problems that’ll crop up, we’ll suck it up and do it.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:38 pm
My mother had the same thoughts you did when I was younger and now I’m 30 with teeth I hate, looking at spending thousands to correct a problem that could have been easily fixed years ago.
Just something to think about.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Thats what I’m afraid of.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:45 pm
I took Gamma to an orthodontist (the same who treated Alpha and Beta) a few years ago, and his determination was that she didn’t really *need” braces, in spite of our dentist’s referral.
But, as musingme noted above, it’s a lot more expensive (and a LOT more painful) to address as an adult than as a child. So many kids have braces — and they’re not as ugly as they used to be in the olden days — that’s it’s not really a stigma. The migraine thing is the only real concern.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Is it purely cosmetic or is there a possible health issue?
My daughter had to get braces because two of her deciduous teeth didn’t come out and had to be pulled, causing alignment problems for the replacement teeth. It was a health issue.
My wife had braces because two of her permanent teeth came in crooked.
My impulse is to say that if it’s a girl, cosmetic braces are probably going to make a bigger difference to her than to a boy. But for health reasons, both should have ‘em.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:52 pm
overbites rock :D … then again, i have migraines, too. the speech lady at school says to expect putting braces on our eldest soon. oh boy.
February 2nd, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Netmom, if our ortho is as frank as yours, this whole thing is moot.
Joel, yeah, if G was of the female persuasion, I’d suck it up and slap the braces on.
I’m going to see what the health issue is all about, with an open mind. If its cosmetic, I’m going to let G ponder it for a month or so. He’s a smart kid, and its his mouth.
Say… maybe they could wire it shut?
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:03 pm
In our community braces are no longer “uncool”. My daughter (now 14) couldn’t wait to get hers on because everyone has them. My next daughter (12) probably won’t need them at all and is not happy about it.
As far as the pain aspect goes -I can only think of 2 times in the last 3 years that have caused her to have headaches. And those were both times she had all her hardware switched out…but then again, she is not prone to migraines, thank goodness.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:08 pm
EVERY kid in middle school has braces. It’s not like he will be the only one. I am 31 now and I had them in 7th grade. Having braces has not caused me any trouble in my adult life. Do they usually? I had them for cosmetic reasons and I’m so glad I did. Braces do suck and are a pain in the booty but I have a great smile and I thank my parents for making me get them! I for sure do not agree with Joel when he said “if it’s a girl, cosmetic braces are probably going to make a bigger difference to her than to a boy.” That is nonsense. Just my 2 cents.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:14 pm
I am, as a general rule, against most cosmetic procedures.
Now. That being said, I am about to be a hypocrite.
I have very crooked upper teeth. They are symmetrically crooked (same overlap on both sides) and the net result is a underbite, not an overbite. I am, as a result, a reluctant smiler and at 42 years old, I kind of wish my parents had the money to correct them when I was little. I toy with the idea of having them done now, but with everything else going to pot, it seems rather pointless.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:31 pm
See, the only thing cosmetically wrong with the boys teeth, at this point, is that one of the frontish topish teeth is pushed back behind the others (the snaggletooth, I was desribing). Otherwise, I think he has a rather nice smile. Course, he’s but a sprout, so theres no telling what kind of nastyness a dozen or so more teeth are going to do.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Y’know, I wish we had gotten Nobbob braces. But then he would be so fine that he couldn’t stand it
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Speaking as a severe migraine sufferer (multiple day pain, started at the ripe old age of 6) and someone who had an overbite and crooked teeth. I had braces in 6-9th grade and I did not notice them giving me any more migraines than I would have had any way. The pain is…different, hard to explain but it disn’t seem to trigger mine. Plus there are a lot more options today than when I was young including the Invisiline things which would probably cause a lot less pain. I would quiz the Orthodontist about the pain factor and the migraines. They can probably do smaller but more frequent adjustments to minimize the pain. If he still has baby teeth to lose, you probably don’t want to rush a decision at this point. I have zero room in my mouth even after having 4 permanent teeth and all 4 wisdom teeth removed. As with all advice, your mileage may vary.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Thats something to consider, ETC, thanks.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:55 pm
I had braces for a fairly severe overbite. My daughter refers to my pre-brace kid pics as “When you were a beaver”. Obviously, I’m glad I had them. I was told once that if you can’t fit a good portion of the tip of your thumb under the overbite, it’s strictly cosmetic. However re: MastaG: don’t know exactly how close his teeth are but crowded teeth harbor plaque making the tooth behind prone to cavities later. I would also think that if the tooth is rubbing the inside of his lip, that would be a concern. And Jennifer’s right, my kids are the few out of their friends that haven’t needed braces, the stigmas not as bad as it used to be.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:01 pm
See, I’m not worried about the stigma of it, I just thing it’d be a suck thing to put up with for a couple of years.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:09 pm
I could have used braces earlier and my parents opted not to. And, at 38 years, I’ve been fine with my teeth. I have contemplated getting braces now to straighten them a bit, but that is my decision based on purely cosmetic reasons now, not based on the general health of my teeth then (or even now actually).
I think my parents made the right decision in not putting me in braces. The decision (if I make it) to do it now is MY decision.
Go with your gut, AT.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:09 pm
It isn’t that bad, and they don’t seem to leave them on as long as they used to, either.
What do you think BJ would think? (Don’t be a sucker :) )
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Can the hive mind see a picture of said snaggletooth to better make a recommendation?
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:38 pm
BJ would probably be more for it, and I’d argue, but I get to trump her now with the “I’m still alive, nanner” argument, so that might win.
I dunno, she’s pretty persuasive, so she might find a way around that one…
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:55 pm
My braces were almost entirely cosmetic. I never had any trouble with my bite/jaw/tmj prior to braces. Now? Its awful. There is a part of me that says there are some things you just don’t move around unless it is necessary. I say wait until he decides he wants them. I know at least one commenter said it would have saved them hardship later in life, and yet they got to make that choice for him or herself. If I had to choose for myself I wouldn’t have done it, and I doubt I would regret it now.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:09 pm
I’m so grateful that I had braces (6th-8th grade). But, my case was not one of just cosmetics.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:15 pm
I couldn’t resist a call to the Hive Mind…
I say, go to the ortho consult, get the x-rays, etc. and then put out here what the ortho says. Our collective Hive experience might be more useful with specifics.
My dentist was telling us for 2 years before he recommended the actual appt. that our son would need “early intervention.” At almost 8 we took him in. His teeth looked fine so I didn’t see what the big deal was. Well, his mouth was so small, the new teeth couldn’t even come in to make the whole set crooked. We spent mucho dinero and 5 years on the whole process. The main part of it all was the palette expansion which I do believe is a good thing to do. The infinite adjustments to make the perfectly straight, I’m not so sure. On top of which, in order to keep them that straight, they now say you need to wear your retainer for-ev-er. That is a long time.
Now that I know what to look for, I can see that my daughter is in the same boat. Her new teeth are HUGE and there is simply not going to be enough room.
At age 11, I doubt your son’s problem is that severe (or you’d have been put on notice before now) but that’s why I think the initial check up with ortho will be good. If it is simply a cosmetic issue, I would agree to let Masta G make the final call. He’s old enough and been through enough, I’d say.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:22 pm
My daughter’s dentist recommended braces when she was about 10. Conveniently, he was also the orthodontist. I waited until she was about 12 to be sure it was necessary. Her teeth came in the exact same way mine did, so I sorta figured she’d need them eventually. But at least I put is off until she was mature enough to take very good care of her teeth and braces, and wear her retainer and such. She did everything they told her and only had to wear them 18 months. And the previous poster was right, everyone in middle school has them. She was out of them by she entered high school. If faced with the same situation, I’d do it again! Best $4500 I ever spent.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:25 pm
I had braces put on when I started 5th or 6th grade. I had an overbite and a cross bite and the braces worked well.
I’m glad my folks had the work done. I don’t remember much about the medical side of the decision, but I do remember that I was glad to get rid of the overbite.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:36 pm
First off…a snaggle tooth is not just cosmetic. It can be hard to clean around surrounding teeth, leading to gum infections. Also, it could indicate that the jaw is not large enough to accomadate a fullset of adult teeth. Odds are the kids bite is off too. Poor bite can cause headaches, TMJ and premature tooth erosion.
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:37 pm
I had braces for 5 years (was supposed to be two, don’t get me started). Got them on when I was a little older than MastaG.
Regarding the pain, it never gave me a headache, because the pain was completely and totally in my mouth. It was hard to notice anything other than the ache in my mouth - it was a very local pain, not generalized to my head. It only lasted a couple of days, and it certainly wasn’t every single time I got them tightened, but when it did hurt, it was definitely just in my mouth.
Regarding stigma - I dunno, maybe I’m weird, I actually liked being a little different from others. And anyone who “made fun” of me was just my friends doing some good natured ribbing, I laughed along with them, even when they were making fun of the pain I was in (one of those “ha ha, SHUT UP, artard.”)
And finally, my teeth were pretty screwed up before the braces (cosmetically), in fact they pulled four teeth (two on top, two on bottom) to make room. They also mentioned overbite problems - bottom teeth hit the gums behind my top teeth. So they wanted to fix that so that I didn’t have problems when I was older. But I just wanted them to make my smile nicer, and even though they were on waaaay longer than I was told, I’m happy now that it was done, because it made me feel a lot better about my smile.
Not sure if that’s just a girl thing though…
February 2nd, 2007 at 3:51 pm
good mercy - record high for comments … on a post about braces
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:04 pm
I’m with you, AT. I refuse to have braces put into my kid’s mouth if it’s purely cosmetic. I quit seeing one dentist when he looked at my *3* year old’s mouth and told me to start saving up.
My teeth aren’t perfectly straight, but I was fortunate enough to not have medical reasons to have braces. I kind of like the personality of my somewhat crooked teeth now.
Sucks for you if G really does need the stupid things!
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Growing up, my three sisters and I did not get braces because there was no $ for it. My 14 year old just got her braces off after a year and her teeth look fabulous. Money well spent, even though to this mom’s eye, they didn’t look so bad to begin with. She is very happy with the results. I have an 11 yr old son who is next, although he still has a mouth fill of baby teeth, so we are in no hurry.
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:39 pm
I’m pretty down on the whole thing now but I’m an odd case, my reasons are really due to family history. My teeth weren’t that bad and I probably could have done without, but I wore braces for 3+ years like most everyone else my age back then.
Fast forward to now… I have inherited my father’s bad teeth and no amount of careful care (or lack thereof) would have made a difference, and I am probably going to lose them early. I guess there’s something to be said for having had 20+ years of cosmetic improvement, but since I am going to likely lose them anyway at a fairly early age, I dunno that it was worth all the money spent back then.
But like I said, I’m an odd case there. For me, if I have children I don’t know that I’ll bother unless not having braces means serious health issues with TMJ or something such, because they are likely going to inherit the same bad teeth anyway. But I’m a rare case, I’m not sure what I would do if I were you about G.
He’s certainly a cutiepie and will continue to be whether his teeth are perfectly straight or not, that’s for sure…
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:22 pm
My daughter had a gap between her front teeth (a la David Letterman or Lauren Hutton) that made her self-conscious, so I was prepared to get her braces (she wanted to get them), but believe it or not, our dentist said she didn’t need them. Here we are quite a few years later and that ole gap went and closed itself up. Go figure.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:00 pm
My teeth were bad when I was a kid. That time in my life was/is a major sore spot. In fact there aren’t that many pictures of my during the time my teeth went “buck” to when I had braces installed. I had an overbite and my lower jaw is a size smaller than it should be. (No worries ladies, I’m still sexy.) At their worst, my two front teeth were nearly horizontal and unless I specially tried to cover them with my lips, they’d stay exposed.
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Pain - not too much - just give him a Motrin before orthodontist visits.
My daughter has wanted “teeth braclets” since she was 4 yrs old!!
EVERYONE does have them these days & it seems the few kids that don’t have them - want them. They get all excited about what color of rubberbands they’ll be getting next.
My advice, if you think you will be forking out the $$ to do this, make sure he knows what you expect. It has been a big lifestyle/eating change for my daughter - no soda, no popcorn, gum & etc … It can take more time/years if they don’t follow the dr’s orders with the rubberbands & etc …
We never had braces either. I think for some - it is just wanting better for your own kids.
Good luck! You have plenty of time to do your research & make the decision that is right for your family.
God Bless!
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Check with your benefits person (if there is such an animal) maybe insurance will cover part or does your company have a FSA option? You can put money away pretax for the expense. Anyway, when teeth are crowded or alignment is off, it makes it difficult to floss/brush those little snacks away. Gum disease is a bummer as you age.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Not sure if someone else has mentioned this, I didn’t read all 38 comments ahead of me. Good oral hygein, brushing, flossing, even teeth alignment is for total body health. When the teeth are not aligned properly it can cause gum disease which can lead to heart disease. Anyway, just a little info. My son has braces and he’s 14. They wouldn’t put braces on his teeth until last year because all his baby teeth had not fallen out yet. Good luck whatever you decide! They make braces really cool now days, you can pick and choose the band color. Kids really love it and hey, if he gets braces now he will have them off by highschool which can be really important when it comes to looks and not having braces.
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:15 pm
What’s the hurry? My twin boys’ dentist/Orthodontist said not to worry with braces until all the baby teeth were out and all the permanents were coming in (unless the crooked teeth really bothered my husband so much that he couldn’t wait). The boys finally got braces right after their 14th birthday, and one son only needed them on the bottom. One word of caution, ask the orthodontist what will happen if G doesn’t wear the rubber bands or the retainer as instructed. Our orthodontist said that a retainer would need to be worn after the braces came off until the kids were 18. Good luck with all that.
P.S.: Every time I need a chuckle, I go back and play G’s rant and Pigpen’s “me too” of a few days ago. They are priceless!
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:45 pm
I had braces. But it was dental/medically nessasary. I had an impacted adult tooth. It was quite amazing how fast those things came off when the money dried up. I guess the ortho did not like the “20 dollar a month” plan and took them off of me and put them on a sure thing. I have read some articles on the subject of getting braces. It seems that people are convinced that they are shafted to a life welding and pipe fitting if they don’t have a row of straight teeth. Colleges won’t accept you, companies won’t hire you, girl friends won’t marry you . . . all because of your jaw full of imperfect teeth. Seeing as your lips are covering them most of the time it doesn’t make sense. In the primate world to show your teeth is either an act of agression or fear.
In my particular situation I had to give up my music — playing jazz trumpet. I was devistated. And I was damn good too. After the braces it was not the same. The crooked teeth actually improved my playing. The ortho blamed my teeth on the trumpet — but for those of you who are brass savy — you don’t press. If you do, you are not doing it right and you are about 30 seconds to a numb face. What the ortho discovered was that the roots to my front teeth seemed to magically receed and my teeth were on the verge of falling out on their own. The ortho said if I did not put down the trumpet I would need a bridge by the time I was 30. Well the braces came off and wouldn’t you know - I was Healed!!
I don’t know what to say about to have or not to have. It seems like it is sort of framed as child neglect if you don’t put them on or get your kid a nose job these days.
February 2nd, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Get the consult and make a decision after that .
In my case My parents said I didn’t need braces $$$ and changed their minds when I was 30, they forked over for them. I ended up with jaw surgery and had the strange feeling that why at 30 am I doing this to myself?vanity?? Well That thought vanished the moment I could chew food with a jaw properly aligned. I never knew that chewing food could feel so right! It was like a puzzle piece had finally fit.
So worth the pain the effort. And wish It had been done much sooner.
February 2nd, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Braces are good for both boys and girls…who likes to look at a mouth full of crooked teeth. Everyone has braces and they also look good. You can get colored wires and the bands are plastic, so the kids actually look good/cute. It is money well spent. Both of my children had to wear them for different reasons. Go for it, your kids will thank you later.
February 2nd, 2007 at 9:50 pm
For what it is worth, I often wonder if I would still have migraines and TMJ issues if my teeth had been corrected when I was a malleable-mouth kid. I usually wonder this as I’m in agony from migraines and TMJ pain.
Go for it if you can manage the expense, endure the occasional complaining of sore teeth (Tylenol, dear child) and extra nagging to brush and floss.
Your son will have one less thing to blame on you if he ever finds himself “on the couch.”
Hey, maybe he’ll even be able to pick up some of those cool radio stations (Okay, I know you’re waaaaaayyyy too young for that Partridge Family reference, but I thought I’d throw it out there for all the other old folks reading.).
:)
February 2nd, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Hi AT,
I used to work as a dental assistant and also had braces as a kid for a snaggle tooth type situation(they never seemed to cause more migraines than ususal, as well).
Braces will save your son in the long run from cavities in the areas affected by the snaggle tooth. Any areas that end up overlapping will always be tough to keep clean and have a tendency towards cavities and gum disease.
Get a few different orthodontis’ opinions to be sure.
Take care - Amanda
February 2nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
I can recommend the ortho that took care of Alpha, Delta, and Bro for MastaG. If he says he needs it, I’d say do it. PunkHP needed braces as a child and we finally took care of it with the help of student loans, I think! When it came to Bro, his were so bad we started in 2nd grade and ended in 9th. Is there any dental insurance available at work? We ended up taking out a loan for Bro’s for the leftover expenses, but I would do it again for that beautiful smile he sports.
February 3rd, 2007 at 12:26 am
I say find out how much exactly it will cost. Take that amount, put it into an account that earns good interest, and when he turns 18 or 21 give him a handful of cash. How many teeth might he loose between now & then. Football, Baseball, Basketball, Motor bike crash, High School fights. or just falling down during puberty. I think he will appreciate the Cash at that time in his life. I would have for sure, but I didn’t get Braces or Cash. Got an over bite though, but It’s just fine.
February 3rd, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Here’s the latest on braces and self-esteem:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070202/hl_nm/braces_dc
February 4th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
I didn’t get braces until I was 34. It was one of those things where I should’ve had them when I was younger, but, at that point, the folks didn’t have the money. I got them because my bottom teeth were pretty crooked and were getting harder and harder to get clean. Your teeth shift with time and I tell ya what the clincher for me getting them was….I was watching a documentary on The Carpenters. Their guitar player had really crooked bottom teeth and they were near about rotten. I decided I didn’t want my bottom teeth looking like that when I was 50 and my grandchildren would be scared of me. (Stuff like that kept me away from the old relatives when I was little!)
February 4th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
45 comments … make that 46.
i had a boyfriend comment that my teeth were too short when i was 18 and the fact has bothered me ever since. you can’t please everyone so you’ve got to please yourself (should be a song) … ask the masta what he would like.
February 5th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Ok…had to weigh in on this though nobody knows who I am.
I had braces as a child and refused to wear headgear. Headgear is probably the cruelest thing ever! Anyway, I had your basic run-of-the-mill overbite but not approaching beaver status. My teeth were completely straight.
As an adult, my teeth were starting to wear kind of funny but not as so you’d notice. In order to fix this, I not only needed braces again but I also needed surgery! Children’s bones are more malleable and jaw discrepencies can be fixed at that time by headgear or whatever else they decide.
Anyway, sometimes bite problems are caused by one jaw not growing to the size of the other one. If someone waits until they are an adult to fix it, it’s expensive and FAR more painful than it would be as a child! The reasons to fix it aren’t purely cosmetic because as teeth wear down, poor alignment can cause damage.
Honestly I guess, I don’t know. I’m not complaining about my situation because really it WAS my fault for rebelling way back when but look past the aesthetic to see if there are structural problems. My jaw had to be moved forward 6cm on one side and 7cm on the other (I was LOPSIDED! Go figure.), I was on a liquid diet for ages, and I am in the less-than-enviable position of coordinating the colors in my braces to my work outfits. Don’t even get me started on formal events!!!
So, just sayin’. My orthodontist is great and I think there are quite a few honest ones out there. If you need a second (or third) opinion, ask a dentist. Sometimes experienced ones can figure out if it’s necessary or not.
Oh and lastly? TONS of cases of children having braces and then the teeth deciding to migrate later on in life and the person has to get braces again. Check on that before you do the expense the first time….
Yeah, I know far too much about this. On the upside of it all, I feel much more symetrical now!
February 6th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Hey you, just wanted to pop in my 2 cents worth. They said the same thing about Nate, but I think I am going to wait and see what happens as his teeth grow in. I had crazy crooked teeth but by the time they all were lost and grown back in they were straight. I think that it’s kind of nuts to want to put braces on a kid before all the teeth even come in. Seems like every single kid gets sent to the ortho when back when I was younger it wasn’t as common. Is it really nessisary? I don’t know, maybe that’s the cynical side of me.
February 8th, 2007 at 11:42 am
The hive mind (minus a few outlyers) seems to feel that there’s more reasons to do it than not. That if MG needs them there are ways to work around any possible issues. That the hassle and stigma aren’t that hard to deal with and the benefits are worth it, both for cosmetic and health reasons.
But also that seeing your Ortho first and waiting until all adult teeth are in may be the way to go.
I just read all the comments and felt the need to sum up.
March 23rd, 2007 at 8:58 am
My Son, Jon, is 11. He does have a bit of crowding of his top teeth, but nothing that bothers him. Our dentist recommended that we see an ortho, which we did. After finding out that we had good dental insurance, the ortho recommended both top and bottom braces, followed by a retainer and the possible use of headgear! I was totally floored.
However, after some prodding, I managed to get the ortho to admit that the problem was not at all critical and could be postponed indefinitely with no adverse affects. After doing a bunch of research about what a kid with braces can go through (i.e. inital pain, having to wear mouthguards during most sports, limitations to what they can eat, etc), and given the fact that my son is totally against the idea of braces, we have decided against it. We have made it completly clear that, should he change his mind when he is a little older, all he needs to do is to say so, and we’ll go get a second opinion and proceed from there. So I say if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!