February 9th, 2007 by The Bosphorus
Survived first week back after three off for paternity leave.
What more can I say?
***
Heard this piece on NPR about gangs in Southern California. The reporter found a gang member who said what’s needed to fix things are more opportunities like jobs and stuff for kids. This gang member said, “They need to give us jobs.” The “they” here being the government, I suppose.
I wonder what tree in Southern California has jobs growing on it? I don’t know, but I just don’t buy that. So, let’s see if the government doesn’t give out jobs, then a life of crime is the logical conclusion?
***
Funny, but I didn’t see a post about work coming when I started this.
February 9th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
I am here, in Southern California, I have been driving around searching for the job tree…as my husband needs one desperately. Gang member is right tho, I am considering a life of crime, its my only alternative. Working two jobs was just too hard. I just have to figure out when I can fit the crime into my busy schedule.
February 9th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
It’s hard work being a crook. A PDA might help w/ scheduling your heists, etc…
February 9th, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Yeah, there seems to be a bit of dualism, have your cake and eat it too, blame it on the man sort of argument in that NPR report. You know, when you are young and gang banging around with no cares I suppose that whole work ethic thing just gets in the way of vocational training. I believe that if you want something bad enough — something like a job or an education then you will fight for it — government or no government programs. Now yes, I am all the way over here on the East coast just flapping my mouth — I don’t know what it is to be in a gang and looking for work. Something tells me that the whole gang affiliation might make you a little less marketable on the job front. There very well might be a conflict of interest there. From my little world with my little understanding there are lots of government opportunites to get out of the gang stuff and get into school or vocational tech programs but the simple fact is you got to start some where. And if that some where is working at Kroger, McD’s, or temping for a while to get job skills then just suck it up and do it. Again, if you want it that bad then you make it a priority and do it. That might mean making some life choices and making some sacrifices. Desiding to do it won’t slide you into a corner office somewhere. No one ever said that playing by the rules would make you a million either. There are always options — you just got to change the way you define success. If success is being out of a gang, working an honest job, and buying your first car — shoot, you got more than some.
I should be quite, but I have more to say on this. It is this whole idea of entitlement. Doesn’t it mean more when you work for something than if someone just gives it to you? There are lots of people who will look at some young person working hard and will give them a hand UP. I just goes back to how bad to you want it and what you are willing to do to get there.
With that said I recognize that there are barriers. I know that there are things beyond ones control — the economy takes a crap, racism, gender bias, and these are serious issues. But kicking around with a gang and saying someone owes you a pay check? Piss on that.
February 9th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Didn’t you know that nothins worth havin if it ain’t just given to ya? :-)
February 9th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
I realize that snark is more fun than history, but when you kids get over your smug selves, maybe you could google “works progress administration” or “civilian conservation corps.” Those were jobs that were just given away by the government, too. I guess the fact that most of the beneficiaries had white skin made it ok, though.
February 9th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Snark — I guess. It is easy to throw around words because I gues they don’t do anything. works progress administration and the civilian conservation corps were great things — wonderful opportunites. I have no beef with government funded work, hope scholarships, pell grants, map awards, perkins loans, unemployment benifits, welfare to work (when it works) and all of the programs that are there as opportunities for people to provide for themselves and their families. I grew up on section 8, food stamps, public aid, medicaid, — variably on the county. There was no other way. Went though the lunch lines with free lunches — the whole deal. But what I am hearing in the NPR report is someone who has resigned herself to the fact that there are gangs, there will always be gangs and they will just do the things gangs do because that is just the way it is. So on one had, yeah, send in the government programs I am all for them because everyone deserves an opportunity. But here is the question, is the gang member that is really serious about getting in the work force ready to rid his life of the things that make him unable to hold down a job or will he or she — white, black, latino, asian — use the excuse of where they came from and what they belong to as a reason to never really make the choice. The bottom line is each individual person has choices to make. Basic axiom of public policy is that the higher the employment rate the lower the crime rate (usually — this not been the case at times in history). So I may be smug and young — but I know a little something. I have got 8 years in civic service in corners of this state and others that you wouldn’t go in during day light hours. I would offer and offer and offer state and federal incentives for people to get on their feet — some would take it but most would not. Some would give a reason and others would not. Often they didn’t trust the government. Sometimes they would pull out and do great and then just go back to what they knew best. I think it is blind to say that it is just about having jobs — it’s not. These are deeply rooted social issues that have a lot of history to them. So before you can even talk about jobs and training you got to find an in road.
So I guess that saying all this makes me snark, smug, young, bitter, and a blind racist — oh yeah, and simple minded. I can only hope that some day that I am so wonderfully worldly, open minded, studious, wise, and witty in my later years.
February 9th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Now there’s the Joel we know and love.
Where have you been, buddy?
February 9th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
Hmm….
When I lived in Harlem, I encountered all types of people; some of them the hardest working people you could ever hope to meet.
I also dealt with people who never wanted to be told what to do. It didn’t matter if you gave them a job, eventually the boss would “piss them off” and they would decide that they “didn’t have to put up with anyone’s bs”. I can’t tell you how many times I heard that while I was volunteering at the community center on 135th St.
The programs are definitely out there (at least in CT and NYC). But getting into one of them means jumping through a lot of hoops and working HARD for little or no money for a long time. Just to find out what programs are available and getting into one is a LOT of work.
When I was a single mom living on day to day subbing pay, there came a time where it looked like I was going to need assistance to get through the winter. The stuff I had to come up with to apply for heat assistance and food stamps was incredible. (Tax returns and pay stubs, mortgage receipts).
So If this person wants someone to GIVE them a job; I wonder, how much are they willing to work for it and how much are they expecting to get paid?
February 9th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Yeah, Tim… the entitlement you mentioned is what caught my attention.
The crime really is beside the point. (Crime is bad, yes, yes.) Government aid is really beside the point, despite Joel’s protest.(Nice try on the race card, though, Joel.)
It’s this entitlement notion that’s backwards. No, it’s this passing the buck, let’s blame it on the Government, that is all messed up. What good does it do to expect the government to “give” you a job? That mindset is the problem here.
February 10th, 2007 at 12:01 am
You can’t just quit a gang. You get ‘jumped in’ or ‘canonized’ to start with, and you don’t get to just decide to leave. It’s kind of like being in an abusive relationship.
February 10th, 2007 at 1:12 am
I don’t have a problem with the programs, they are valuable and needed. It’s the sense that it must be given to them. The programs Joel refers to were awesome, and liberal California has many more programs also. They are there for those who seek, it may be considered a handout, but they don’t go looking for you…you have to seek. And I am anything but smug, I have accessed those programs myself, as have my children when necessary. But I honestly didn’t consider crime my alternative if someone didn’t come knocking on my door with the answer. Although, now that Bos has given me a good reason to use my lunch money on a PDA, maybe I could schedule in a little crime in my time of need, lol
My husband and I grew up in Eastside and quitting a gang is hard, but it can be done. Even better was never, ever joining one in the first place, no matter how hard it was.
Just my 2 cents, which here in San Diego is probably worth 1/1600 of what its worth anywhere else…so probably not much at all.
Vickie
February 10th, 2007 at 7:40 am
“Government aid is really beside the point”
Uh, no, bos. Let’s go back and read your post:
“The reporter found a gang member who said what’s needed to fix things are more opportunities like jobs and stuff for kids. This gang member said, “They need to give us jobs.” The “they” here being the government, I suppose.
I wonder what tree in Southern California has jobs growing on it? I don’t know, but I just don’t buy that.”
It what sense is government aid *not* the point of this passage? Maybe not the point you *intended* to make, but I can’t read intentions. I can only read words. It *is* the point of the passage I quoted.
As for the race card; yes, I assumed that when you referred to gangs in CA, you were referring to black or Hispanic gangs. If not, I apologize.
But if you *were* referring to black or Hispanic gangs, and if you found *their* expectation that the government would be the employer of last resort objectionable, then you either believe all government public works programs are bad (including the WPA and CCC) or you believe that government work programs are OK for unemployed white folks but not for blacks or Hispanics.
Or maybe you want to revise your post.
February 10th, 2007 at 8:28 am
Well, Joel… you missed the point.
Twice.
You obviously didn’t read the italicized “give” in the original, nor did you carry it over into your quote.
As for not reading intentions, come off it Joel. I made no reference to race in the post. Race is beside the point as far as I’m concerned. You went out on a limb with your assumption and it’s not holding up your weight.
Now, why don’t you go and revise your own keytapping.
February 10th, 2007 at 9:44 am
The word “give” *is* in the quote I used, bos. I did carry it over. I copied it directly from your post and pasted it into my reply. The italics didn’t carry over because the comment box didn’t carry that over.
I can’t really believe this is all about italics, bos. But if it is, I’m sorry I didn’t honor your styling and only focused on your substance.
The people who worked for the WPA were *given* jobs. The person you quoted said that the government should *give* gang members jobs.
If your point is that the word “give,” when rendered in italics, conveys a different meaning than the word “give” when used to refer to the jobs given by the WPA and CCC, then this is a level of nuance that is unfamiliar to me. If you explain the difference, I’ll add this to my lexicon.
But if you object to black and hispanic gang members asking to be given jobs by the state, you must surely object to white citizens being given jobs by the state during the Great Depression. To believe otherwise strikes me as racist. Your mileage may vary.
But I’ve met you and have no reason to believe you are racist. Accordingly, I assume you find the WPA and CCC also objectionable. So if you are opposed to using the government as the employer of last resort, and you are faced with a substantial population of young people with few skills and no jobs, what is your solution? The status quo for many of them, at least in Southern CA, *is* gangs and crime. I don’t endorse that, I’m just being reality-based. Police and prisons ain’t cheap, bos. Another alternative is welfare.
Why is society better off locking these kids up or handing out free money if a viable alternative is to give them jobs? They get the money, the honest work fills idle hands, and society benefits from their labor. Why is this not win-win? It worked in the ’30s. I realize this was a little before your time, but I see no reason to invent a new solution for an old problem.
February 10th, 2007 at 10:11 am
It’s a matter of emphasis, Joel. So, yes the italics are important, especially when it comes to you putting words into my mouth, so to speak.
Stop with the race baiting. I never brought it up. You did.
I’m interested in the attitude of that one gang member, who sees her deliverance coming via one gang or another. That alternative gang, as brought out by the NPR report, is the government. It seems she believes her only hope is one of two evils. I’m struck by that despair.
February 10th, 2007 at 10:43 am
“you putting words into my mouth, so to speak.”
Uh, no, bos. I copied and pasted your text. Please point out one single word that I inserted between the quotation marks that wasn’t yours. If you can do this, I’ll cop to ‘putting words in your mouth.’ If you can’t, then we can dispense with this canard and focus on substance.
“It seems she believes her only hope is one of two evils.”
OK, that clears the air on the racism issue. You *do* believe that the WPA and CCC were bad, and, being consistent, you believe that government jobs given to unemployed blacks or hispanics are also bad.
So now I understand our disagreement. You see government as “evil.” Indeed, from your text, you treat gang membership and government jobs as equivalent evils. I don’t.
I am moved by the dispair of someone who has such few choices in life. I don’t see offering such a person a job, with the opportunity to feel useful, to develop a record of good work habits and an employment recored, and perhaps to develop some job skills as “evil.”
But I can see you differ. Tell me, bos; do you consider the US military to be “evil?” The military has been the government employer of last resort for decades. Since the job qualifications (especially these days) are minimal, I’d say thousands of unskilled men and women have been “given” (add italics if you like) government jobs by the military.
February 10th, 2007 at 11:17 am
“Give us this day our daily Bread”
We human beings come from a long line of those who want. We need to reevaluate our wants.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:56 am
Hey Joel, I have an idea. If you truly believe what you’re pitchin’ why don’t you start up a business, (if you havn’t already) and put the folks to work? There are plenty of Gov. programs waiting to help you start a business.
Oh phooey, I forgot… lots of folks have already done that, and they are having a devil of a time finding reliable, honest employees.
Who do you think is doing all the “hard” work in Calif.? It’s not the folks that believe anyone “should” be giving them a job. It’s the folks crossing the border in the middle of the night because they are hungry and want a chance to have a decent life. Do you have any idea how hard they work and never once complain, happy just to have a chance? They sure as hell didn’t sit around waiting for the government to fix their problems.
Joel, have you considered getting out a little more, taking a few deep breaths and simply observing what is going on in the world? There are plenty of non-government jobs in Calif. for anyone that wants to work. I know, I live and work there.
It is possible that a government provided job or job training will help some folks. The problem is, it just isn’t likely when the person being “given” the job believes it is owed them somehow.
February 11th, 2007 at 7:02 am
“Hey Joel, I have an idea. If you truly believe what you’re pitchin’ why don’t you start up a business, (if you havn’t already) and put the folks to work?”
I’ve had employees all of my career. How about you?
“It’s the folks crossing the border in the middle of the night because they are hungry and want a chance to have a decent life. Do you have any idea how hard they work and never once complain, happy just to have a chance? They sure as hell didn’t sit around waiting for the government to fix their problems.”
So your point is that there are hard-working illegal aliens who find jobs in this country, so we shouldn’t bother trying to deter kids from gang membership by offering them jobs? Is that your point?
“Joel, have you considered getting out a little more, taking a few deep breaths and simply observing what is going on in the world?”
Heh. I’ll bet I’ve seen about as much of the world in my 52 years as you have. And, judging from the shallowness of this bit of snark, I’m sure I’ve understood more of what I’ve seen than you have.
“There are plenty of non-government jobs in Calif. for anyone that wants to work. I know, I live and work there.”
I guess I don’t get your point here, either. I didn’t say that *everyone* should work at a government job. I’m sure there are lots of jobs around–how many of those employers are looking to hire high school drop-outs with no prior experience?
“It is possible that a government provided job or job training will help some folks. The problem is, it just isn’t likely when the person being “given” the job believes it is owed them somehow.”
The actual, you know, history of this country teaches a different lesson. The CCC, WPA and NYA were all government jobs “given” to people. The military remains the government employer of last resort, and with its standards, jobs are pretty much “given” to people in the military. Millions of unemployed people benefitted from the New Deal and military service in this country.
G-pop, it is not only “possible” that government-provided jobs will help some folks–they have and are still helping folks. Maybe it is *you* who needs to get out a little more, take some deep breaths, and observe. And learn a little history, while you’re at it.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Joel, I have no problem w/ gov. assistance & work programs.
Race has nothing to do w/ the this post.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:11 am
W-C Gpop, good to see you.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:26 am
“Joel, I have no problem w/ gov. assistance & work programs.”
I’m glad to see we agree on this.
I got confused because somebody posted this on 10 Feb at 10:11 AM using your name:
“That alternative gang, as brought out by the NPR report, is the government. It seems she believes her only hope is one of two evils.”
Now I realize this could not have been your post because this person equates the government with a gang and refers to the government as evil. From having met you and read your writing, I know you *do* have a problem with evil, and since you don’t have a problem with gov’t assistance/work programs, I’m sure you don’t consider them “evil.” I suspect that you, like me, also have a problem with kids joining gangs.
Do you have any idea why this person who posts under your name considers government assistance and work programs to be “evil” and the equivalent of gang membership? I don’t.
February 11th, 2007 at 9:08 am
While I agree with Joel that past government jobs certainly have helped many people with a leg up, I also agree with what I believe to be Bos’ real point to this thread.
Not that the gov. is evil or that government assistance, in an of itself, is bad but that the “they need to give us…” attitude is far too common place. That the first thought is what someone else should do for me instead of what I should do for myself.
Of course, I am often wrong and may have missed the point all together.
February 11th, 2007 at 9:40 am
Wish I had me a rolly-eyes icon…
February 11th, 2007 at 10:05 am
” . . . the “they need to give us…” attitude is far too common place.”
I don’t know how common it is. I’ve certainly met college grads and heard of military veterans with such attitudes.
“That the first thought is what someone else should do for me instead of what I should do for myself.”
I guess I missed the part showing that this was this was the “first” thought of the person quoted.
It is remarkable to me how bos and daco are able to read so much intention into so few words. Not being possessed of similar psychic powers, I’ll restrict myself to what my conventional senses tell me.
Full disclosure: unlike self-made men like daco and bos, I had a lot of help to get where I am today. To begin with, I had two bright and hard-working parents who taught me their values and paid for my college education. I had some terrific mentors in high school, college, graduate school and as a post-doc. I have a bright and hard-working wife who inspires me daily. I’ve had people who have written me favorable letters of recommendation and anonymous reviewers who have endorsed my papers for publication and my grants for funding. I’ve had bosses who offered me challenging tasks that respected my intellegence. I have colleagues whose genius and hard work are both humbling and inspiring.
I understand how those of you who got where you are without any such help would resent me for all the help I’ve been given. And I understand how you would resent a gang member who, like you, hasn’t had any of my advantages, and is unable to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps like you both have done. But when I read of the struggles and confusion of others less fortunate than I, my reaction is “There, but for the grace of God, go I.”
Your mileage may vary.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:18 am
” . . . the “they need to give us…” attitude is far too common place.”
“I don’t know how common it is.”
I don’t know how common it is either Joel. I made that statement based on the fact that the gang member didn’t list any other options that they had tried or would like to try.
Good on you man that you had such great help. I can certainly understand why you would feel guilty for having so much. Heh.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:26 am
It’s not guilt, daco, just gratitude. I’ve been blessed and I acknowledge it.