February 18th, 2007 by Atomictumor
As I drove by, thinking about stopping and getting a copy of Radiohead’s Kid A to replace the one that broke a few months ago, I noticed that Cat’s Music on Illinois Avenue had closed. Without fanfare, or discussion, or even a ripple in the water, the last (and only) music store in Oak Ridge that doesn’t have a “mart” after it had closed down.
I heard talk from LissaKay a while back that the sowing section of Walmart had shut down, and a week or two ago I saw the barren barrenness of the closed down section. Once again, folks in this town of 25,000+ have to drive to Knoxville to get something.
The decent pawn shop in town closed a year or two ago, Atomic Pawn. Yeah, theres the one next to that neon sign on the Turnpike, but that place is pretty small, and probably not much longer for the world.
I watch the car dealership, Paul Benton motors, that used to be one of the Fox joints switch from selling whichever of the domestic brands it used to sell, to selling Suzuki’s. I see this as a struggling move, a gasp of air, but since the inventory of the lot has damn near disappeared (and not because they’re selling like hotcakes, I’d imagine) it would seem that the dealership is still in hot water.
A few shops in Jackson Square, mainstays of the place, closed last month. Never went to em, myself.
And therein lies the problem. Nobody’s going to these shops. Sure, a CD at Cat’s was more expensive than Walmart, but I don’t know that thats the full reason. Walmarts selection sucks, so surely people are getting their music elsewhere, what with all the little longhair’d hipster kids running around town.
Oak Ridge business is choking. Simply put, its more expensive to get stuff here. Sure, its convenient, but people don’t seem to mind running down to Knoxville to get what they need. Why?
I ask myself this, not an hour after getting back from Turkey Creek on a trip to Target and Earthfare (good beer, yum). Thats the problem. People have gotten themselves used to the drive, the commute down for decent shopping. Groceries? Sure, we can get that in town. Everything else, we buy in Knoxville, with Knox County taxes.
And now, to my absolute amazement, the Target deal in town, which I was sure would be a shoo-in, is standing at 50/50 in the public eye, according to the Oak Ridger.
Let me say this plainly: I am 100% sure, without a doubt, that this deal will be what makes Oak Ridge. If we turn down this Target, we’re going to be on the ass end of any business development. If Oak Ridge shoots this thing down, we’re telling every developer out here that its a waste of time to consider Oak Ridge as a lucrative business market.
Don’t have a problem with that? You say you don’t mind driving to Turkey Creek or West Knoxville for your stuff?
By preventing the city from moving ahead, in every business model out there, the place is moving backwards. What happens when business closes? What happens when its more convenient for folks employed here to just live closer to the shopping (and the lower property taxes, natch) in Knoxville?
Man, I don’t have answers. I wish I did, but seems to me that if we don’t take a deep breath and step out into the unknown on this Target gig, we won’t get much more in the way of chances.
February 18th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
I hope you’re right, but I fear you’re wrong.
I’m buying more and more by way of the internet–especially CDs and books. I suspect I’m not alone in this. We have two record stores in the 6-block “loop” shopping area. But that’s located four or five blocks from Washington University.
Oak Ridge has a demographic problem. What fraction of Oak Ridgers are retired and on fixed income? How many of them are willing to spend enough money on recorded music or fine dining to keep the stores and restaurants alive?
As long as Oak Ridge remains geriatric and gas remains cheap, Knoxville will get the business.
February 18th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
You hit the nail’s head, AT. We drove out to Turkey Creek this afternoon for lunch. We wanted something not fried, but cheaper than Ruby Tues. What is there in O.R. on a Sun. afternoon that fits the bill? We ate at McCallisters.
While we were there we did some grocery shopping at Target and bought a shirt at Old Navy. We do this often enough. I for one would rather shop in O.R.
February 18th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
I’m really kinda with you, Joel. Given the choice between whats in town, driving, and internet, town gets the third choice most often.
This was a bit of an open observation, wherein, not unlike global warming, I’m watching this decline, participating in it, and having a fairly good idea that its not going to end up in a warm fuzzy place (well, global warming might be warm, but not necessarily fuzzy)
February 18th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
I would love to have a Target and while it wouldn’t really keep me from going to K-town it would give me another option. The thing is the Target won’t be a Super Target more than likely because Target only allows so many Super Targets per so many miles and Turkey Creek is right down the road. I think the grocery part would be what we would go for more than anything. They have a better selection of organics and I don’t feel so slimy shopping there.
We do try to shop at smaller stores like the Butcher shop there in Oak Ridge and some of the already mentioned stores in the Grove.
I’m on the outside, in Clinton, but it seems to me that Oak Ridge has been on the decline for a while now.
February 18th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
AT, I appreciate your zeal. I love that you are passionate about this Target development, but I disagree that this piece of business will “make” or break Oak Ridge. I completely agree with you that seeing this project through would probably do a great deal to strengthen OR’s economy, but you and I have both watched our city leader’s poorly plan for a good business opportunity. We may well screw up a few more deals like this before catching on.
Man, I hope not though.
February 18th, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Oak Ridge has been in a state of retail decline since they took out Downtown and built the mall. Then the mall wars put the final nail in the coffin.
Damn long decline. We keep on a keepin on.
My first thought upon returning to Oak Ridge last summer is it really needs a couple of good “big box” stores, like Target. I do not think the city should be paying them to come here though, not to the tune of $10.5 million. Has anyone thought the traffic situation completely through yet? Oy! What a horrible place to put in a new major intersection!
I would also love to have a PetSmart here. Bed, Bath and Beyond would be nifty, as would a AC Moore or Hobby Lobby. Those store, in turn, tend to attract smaller shops as co-tenants, a la Turkey Creek.
And we need a decent freakin SHOE store! For the love of all that is holy, we need something besides the wretchedness of Kmart and Walmart and the ridiculous prices and still crappy selection of JCP and Sears! Gimme a Rack Room!
While we’re wishing, could the Time Out Deli stay open later than 7? Please? Oh, and could we get a Japanese Hibachi place like Shonos?
February 18th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
PetSmart, B,B & B, Hobby Lobby, Rack Room, Shonos?
Heh.
My in-laws wouldn’t visit any of those stores. If you want to understand the OR retail future, you’ll need to meet my in-laws. They’re in their ’70s. He golfs. She doesn’t drive.
February 18th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
I think Joel hit the nail on the head. What do the demographics show? Yeah, there is a niche of mid-20-40 year olds, but there is still that “fixed”(hate that word as all incomes are fixed at one rate or the other) income population and it is aging, rather quickly now that baby boomers are hitting that age.
So, what draws that money? An elderly couple that simply needs dog food for their pets, (not to eat themselves, I hope)
will simply go to where they can get the products they need daily. Can they get that in Oak Ridge? Yeah, one more store offering that service is not going to save Oak Ridge.
So, what the City Leaders are hoping is that having the same stores in Oak Ridge that are located in T.C. will act as a net to catch all the fish traveling straight through town to T.C. Those to the West and NW of Oak Ridge might bite on that but you need to look out Harriman is on your heals. They have a Lowe’s and a much better Kroger and such at the Midtown exit with Walgreens set for Fall. It will draw those shoppers because is it easy to get to via interstate access.
As far as funding the infrastructure for this development, infrastructure is a natural function of government. If there is infrastructure to attach to, and allow for business to be conducted, those businesses may just appear. The difference in this proposal is that if it were at the Big Lots/Bowling Alley site, the infrastucture is already there. The city should make sure all vacant areas within the corporate limits be infrastructure accessable.
February 18th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
What is wrong with the old Food City shopping center at Illinois and the Turnpike? Sure, it’s not as big an area as Turkey Creek, but the buildings are already there, just need upgrading. I do not want my tax dollars to go for this fiasco on top of this mountain. I would rather use that money to get out of this contract that Wal-Mart has us in. We will never have the variety of stores that Turkey Creek has - we don’t have the room. If it’s not going to be a Super-Target, they shouldn’t even build here. Will we even know these things before a decision is made?
February 18th, 2007 at 9:46 pm
I dunno about where ya’ll live, but here? School districts end up underfunded by the poor economy, and end up merging with neighboring school districts. Then the once a week trip to go shopping, an hour round trip, can end up a daily commute for kids on buses. An hour round trip to pick up a sick child, to attend school functions. First individual schools within a school system get combined, and then, neighboring systems get a co-name, and suddenly the bigger town sucks up the lil town kids. No funding for buses they say, too many teacher cuts,,,,no music programs, pay to play sports,,,sigh. It’s more than just dollars in some areas, its the “hope” for the future getting sucked out of a town. I’m depressing. Bleah.
February 18th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
The proposal at hand is for a SUPER TARGET. Yes, it is.
Jackson Square lost a couple of places recently, but a brand new fabric store opened there a couple of weeks ago, just down from Razzleberry’s ice cream, which opened in November. I didn’t frequent either of the places that closed, but the new places will definitely get my repeat business.
What’s wrong with the old Food City, for this particular proposal, is that it isn’t big enough. I wish it were… it would be so much more convenient, and they wouldn’t need any city funding to do it.
I’m with AT: it’s time to move forward before we get left behind. The fixed incomes of our seniors are higher than most — anyone who can afford to golf can shop at Target.
February 18th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Have you discussed any of these concerns with your local Planning Commission? It’s YOUR town, after all… I see they meet this Thursday at 7:30. Call and ask to be put on the agenda. Questions to ask: Is there a current comprehensive plan for Oak Ridge? If so, what goals are listed in the comp. plan? How do they plan to reach those goals? If there is no current plan, are they in the process of writing one? What kind of scoping have they done? At what point in the process are opinions of OR citizens being surveyed? What are the major challenges facing OR today (aging population, etc.)?
February 18th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
I agree with Tracy: posted the same ideas on the oakridger message board. Considering the only thing I see on there is primarily whining then actual information- can anyone here tell me WHY OR wants to give $10M to a company to develop privately owned land when there’s so many open/ empty places in town?
Netmom: Knoxville is known as a large town because people develop OUT rather then UP like most places. Why couldn’t Target buy a building like what Food City was in and make the building TALLER, rather then wider?
I can’t help but to suspect that if Target associates want to develop the land an individual will own after the building is completed in order to create an area that other businesses could go in on the same land owned by the same individual that the people over putting in Target has a secret (”Under the table”) agreement with said owner to put money in their pockets.
Of course I might be wrong. Can anyone give me an idea how Target would benefit from starting the wanted development instead of saving $20M (or $10M since OR would pay half) and use the now abandoned Food City location or similar and not have to develop the land?
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While I’m tossing my 2 cents in some have mentioned wanting a Petsafe to come in: Isn’t that whats next to BigLots now?
Also I don’t think Oak Ridge CAN become the next “Turkey Creek”: as another said we don’t have an area with enough space closely together to support it (this includes if we tear down and revamp the existing mall.) What we DO have, however, is TONS of common sized buildings that are empty and could support many smaller stores.
Stores that are available in the surrounding area aren’t going to draw in more people to this town just by being here: the only chance they have of doing so is if the same shoppers find the local one cheaper and- most of all- more Convient then going somewhere else. (My belief is most people stop somewhere because it’s on their way to or from work.) I don’t go to Food City since they moved because- hey, it’s on the other side of town now: It’s not convient for my anymore.
Frankly I see nothing that Target could carry that would make me start to shop there instead of WallMart. What “NEW” could they posses beside a building that would encourage me? What would draw me there? (Heck, we’re getting tons of new buildings to look at as it is.)
What we need to look at is not what stores we do or do not have but what actually draws people here: sure- we get a Target. People stop going to KMart and go there for the change and then KMart closes down. Do we really get more tax collected from Target, or do we get the same tax from a different source?
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We live in an interesting area: Driving around I’ve found dozens of subdivisions with $200k+ homes, along with our ghetto, drug infested and “poor” areas. Look at Outer Drive: West outer by Illinois Ave is well known as a drug infested area. Go to the end of it (Somewhat towards Kingston) and you find a rather rich and expensive neighborhood.
Around here you either make in the $40K+ range or, like myself, in the low $20K & under range.
Most of what OR has are dozens of homes in large expensive subdivisions, and those who have the money have nowhere with glamor and glitz to go. The only place people can go here for entertainment is the theater. So they go to Turkey Creek- because it looks more fun. They go to Gatlinburg- because there’s more to do.
What we need:
1: A place for young people to hang out; no arcade, no mall, no nothing right now.
2: A place that has the “Comfort feeling” for the older and middle age crowd: Perhaps a Cracker Barrel, or some mom and pop restaurants that shed the “Ultra Sleek”/ business/ bar appearance most places have. I don’t feel comfortable sitting in Starbucks because of the atmosphere; it feels rushed.
3: Entertainment: we have a theater, thats it. What is going to draw people here and KEEP them here to encourage them to have fun? Shopping in a new building is only entertaining the first few times around.
4: Better City Planning. The layout of a town is as important as the layout of a store. Would Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge be the same if they were spread out over a larger area, or do they succeed so well during the winter (When Dollywood isn’t a factor) because just about every store is on a single strip of road?
Our city is centered around a Triangle: Food city and movie rental store on one corner, WallMart on the other, a bookstore, electronics store, car parts store, and biglots on the right outside of the triangle, but NOTHING on the bottom, Nothing in the middle, and little on the left side of the triangle- inside or outside. We have plenty of places for people to eat, but what do we do before or after?
Sorry for the blurb AT, but would like to get intelligent opinions to these thoughts and questions… might have to start my own blog sometime. ;)
February 19th, 2007 at 12:19 am
For some historical non-data, two towns near here, in the same county had a similar issue. Town 1 wanted to keep it small, keep it to themselves. They deterred development, failed to approve applications. Town 2 gleefully accepted Town 1’s rejects. When Wal-Mart came calling, Town 1 said “HELL NO” and Town 2 said “SHOW ME THE MONEY.” 15 years later Town 1 is struggling to survive, can’t sustain any economic development and Town 2? Is BEAUTIFUL. Has a fabulous downtown, great shopping, industries, business. People from all over shop their. Can we truly say the Wal-Mart is the straw that broke the camels back? Not Truly. But, it is widely assumed that is the case.
February 19th, 2007 at 6:10 am
joel seems to be hitting a lot of nails on the head.
i like target but i don’t wannt a turkey creek in OR.
February 19th, 2007 at 9:06 am
This is all so interesting to read.
Sounds like our town 20 odd years ago. What they did: annexed a portion of the land to the county to build a mall. Then everything that was downtown JCPenney, etc moved into the mall. 5 years later our downtown was deserted, city almost went bankrupt, schools had no money, property values sunk, the older demographic began dying putting more houses on a bad market…you get the picture. Then the 20-40 demographic began buying the houses, fixing them up, opening smaller boutique-like shops and created a thriving art community in the downtown area. All of that helped, but in the end it was the development of a big box complex (Target was first, Cracker Barrel et al followed close on the heels) RIGHT ACROSS THE STREET from the Mall. Many people were ticked at first, thought we should use our vacant buildings, etc. But in the long run it was in our tax district and kept the traffic and Starbucks Corp, etc away from Downtown which couldn’t handle it and didn’t really want it anyway.
The economy of our city boomed from the tax revenue. The location pulled in money from the surrounding counties, as well as our tiny city. But the tax revenue stayed with us.
Within in the past 5 years we have updated the elementary school, built a new middle and this year my son attends a brand new high school. The old one was built in 1953! The downtown area is now thriving, our property values are through the roof and the city has surplus money.
Originally, no one thought we could support the mall and the Super Complex. But now there are 3 Targets and 4 Walmarts w/accompanying satellite stores within 10 miles of Downtown. All thrive and my little part of the world is still traffic-less, big box-less , the vacant shops have filled in and we are now considered the “prime area” because of this.
You have to think ahead. The demographics will change. The older folks will pass on. The new industry (computer/telephone center related -isn’t that where alot you work down there?) will move in drawing a younger crowd of dwellers.
If you build it, they will come.
February 19th, 2007 at 10:46 am
I stand corrected. I was told the reason the new Target out East wasn’t a Super Target was because it was too close to Turkey Creek and Target’s policy.
I agree that there needs to be more for the teens/preteens in the area. I read an article a while back saying that it is this age group that is spending and deciding where to spend the majority of the family’s money, in every aspect, even buying the family car.
This town could very easliy support a Hobby Lobby. This is one of the most crafty towns I’ve seen.
February 19th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
“…the teens/preteens in the area. I read an article a while back saying that it is this age group that is spending and deciding where to spend the majority of the family’s money, in every aspect, even buying the family car.”
Sorry, but that scares the crap outta me, but it would explain a few things.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
ditto
February 19th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
It is all about demographics, that’s for sure. And Oak Ridge is rather unique among cities its size for a number of reasons …
Education: Oak Ridge is one of the most highly educated cities anywhere.
Age: Oak Ridge is an aged city. The average age, last figure I saw, was 38. Knoxville, by contrast, is 27. That number is lower than when I was a teen/young adult - it was around 40 or 42 then. Reason? Young people have traditionally left Oak Ridge after they reach adulthood and not returned. That stand more true for people in their 40s and up than younger it seems, but it is still an unusual trend. There has never been much here that has been of much attraction to young adults.
Income: Oak Ridge has a high median income - higher than most cities its size. Again, the higher levels of education and older population factor in, in conjunction with the plants and other high tech employers here.
So what do we have here? Older, wealthier, smarter citizenry.
Of course, the folks that come from outlying counties should also be factored in to the demographic as well … Scott, Campbell and Morgan counties, other parts of Anderson … there just isn’t much, if any, shopping out there, so they come here. It’s not an insignificant percentage of the shopping dollars either.
I don’t really have a point …. just some observations from living in and near Oak Ridge for 30 years.
Oh, and whoever said there isn’t any difference between Target and Walmart … I dunno what you’re shopping for, but it ain’t clothes, household furnishings or electronics … Target kicks Walmart ass in those departments!
:-)
February 20th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
I don’t know how K-Mart has stayed in business in this town. Very few people shop there and they rarely have anything anyone needs. We need more stores like PacSun, Rue 21, GAP or Old Navy, JoAnne’s or Michaels, Circuit City, Famous Dave’s. We have enough stores like the ones at Jackson Square or Grove Center - knick-knack stores, incense. What about what the guy wrote in the letter to the editor in the OR yesterday. I forgot what the wording was, but he mentioned something about it not even being lawful that we can’t have a Target or whatever at the mall.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Thats more of the wonderful business planning done by past O.R. officials. I didn’t see the letter, but walmart has a 99 yr deal with the city not to put anything that directly competes with em within a certain footage from the store, which rules out the mall, or something.
Man, hell with the mall. I don’t think thats going to happen anytime soon. IF they do this Target thing, I can damn near guarantee you it’ll be done a year before anything at the mall is completed.